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Sonia and Johanna One of the joys in doing the interviews for the Bridging the Gap project, was to sit with Sonia and Johanna as they shared about their journey together. Sonia was a same-gender attracted woman committed to Christ and an orthodox understanding of sexual ethics. Johanna was an atheist and identified as a lesbian. The story of Johanna's journey to faith and the role God invited Sonia to play in being a true friend and intercessor, has been so encouraging to us as we intentionally focus on building relational bridges with our gay neighbours. To sit, ten years later, with these brilliant, deeply devoted disciples of Christ as they had moments of profound emotion in remembering how God has worked in their lives was an incredible blessing. Sonia: We met in 1997 in an online forum for dialogue about gay issues. You were a self proclaimed atheist, a really bright, gifted, young person. I was intimidated because I thought you were just so much better read in philosophy and that no argument I could make would be persuasive. But as we talked, I could see your heart. You expressed things that were so painful. I just really began to care, to be impacted by what you were sharing about your life. And I really began to pray. Johanna: I remember at first, I was pretty intimidated by you, by the sort of relationship you had with God. It just seemed very foreign and intense. Your passion for God, your maturity from your years of walking with Him, and your years of devotion to him - there was a depth and a power to it. I remember you were going through a pretty difficult time of struggling yourself with your same sex attractions, and the question of whether or not those were ever going to change, what that meant about God, and what that meant about your future... In some ways, when other people hear about this, they think it's sort of weird that that could have been an asset or something that worked to bring me to faith. But it just made such an impression on me. I had all these intellectual issues and questions and wrestling going on. But getting to know you - you being vulnerable, letting me see what you were wrestling with, letting me see what Jesus meant to you - it confronted me with the power of the role that He was playing in your life. And it was like, "I'm not sure if he's real or not, but, there must be something here because here's this woman who's struggling so hard, unsure of a lot of things, unsure of her own ability to bear a lot of things....", but yet, not for a moment did I get the sense that you wavered about whether Jesus was worth giving things up for - whether Jesus was worth walking this path for. There was never any doubt. I had dabbled in all sorts of different philosophies, other religions and perspectives, and I had never known something so powerful, that mattered so much to me, that I would think it was a no-brainer to suffer for. To me that said Jesus Christ must really be something. I wasn't sure what to make of the existence of God, or whether or not Jesus actually existed, but I couldn't shake this sense that I wanted to get to know Him. I wanted what you had in your life. From a worldly perspective that sounds ridiculous. But that was such a powerful blessing you gave me - being real to me. And just by being present. Sonia: That was such a terrible time in my life. If I would have ever thought of what it would take to be a good witness or influence on behalf of Christ, I was not that person. I was at a low point because after over 20 years of really struggling with homosexuality, trying to walk faithfully, trying to look at everything that God brought up in terms of becoming more able to enter into good friendships and working through painful events from the past, I found that my attractions hadn't changed at all. And I was really grappling with what that meant. "Had I somehow failed God? Was my faith lacking? Was I was mistaken about the whole thing? Maybe I just hadn't read the scripture correctly. Maybe my whole understanding of what God was asking of me was off." And it just was very painful. I had heard a number of testimonies of people who's attractions had shifted, who had gotten married, and I wondered if I had somehow failed in that journey of seeking to give everything in my life to Christ, to devote all my heart, all my affections to Him. I felt so hopeless at times, because the longing to connect with another human being is such a deep thing. It's very intense. And if it's in a direction where there isn't a sense of God's blessing to act on it, then it's a difficult position to be in. All of these questions were in front of me, and my heart was just aching. When we began talking, I thought, "I just feel so incapable of offering anything that would be inspiring, that would be anything other than depressing and hopeless." What I found was that you were sharing things that were going on in your life, loneliness, and just very painful struggles that you had. And I just felt so helpless. I wanted to do something to provide a sense of what God might be doing or saying, or some comfort or reason for continuing to look for Him. When you would ask me questions about my struggle, and why was I willing to give up what seemed to be relational fulfillment, I just thought my answers sounded so illogical, and kind of lame. Or, questions about, "How do I know that Christ is real?" "How do I know that he loves us?" I felt completely inarticulate in expressing that. But I was so impacted by what you were going through that all I could do was just cry out, pray, and ask God to reach you somehow. I didn't know what else to offer other than what I had. I felt, "OK, I'll just give what I have, which is honesty, vulnerability, love." So you would ask questions, I would answer no matter how foolish it seemed, and continued to pray that somehow God would reveal His heart. Johanna: In ways that you and I couldn't see at the time, God was using those conversations. What you consider your inarticulateness (and I'll admit, there was no point at which I was like, "oh, she's got all the answers"), in some way, God even used that to communicate to me. Here you were, a very educated, intelligent person, and what your responses to me said was that this isn't about having all the arguments, this isn't about having all the answers to the questions. This is about something more that transcends our ability to argue, understand, and nail down all the facts and the reasons. And that spoke to me powerfully, along with your vulnerability. You mentioned the success stories. And I just want to say that, in some ways, your experience spoke to me in a way that a success story couldn't - because it said to me something about the beauty of Jesus, the love of Jesus. There was no carrot for you, there was no bonus - not the happy, smiling spouse, and the bouncing family - there was nothing but God, but Jesus. That provided clarity of focus for me. I don't fully understand how, but through these conversations, your relationship with God and the way you were very patient and very gentle, was showing me about God. You modeled the power of Christ for me in a tangible way that I could see it. Even if you couldn't answer my questions about Christ, in some sense there was this answer in just how you treated me - even when I was kind of obnoxious, or very blunt, or any number of things. Your patience and your willingness to hang in there (because I believe I asked the same questions over and over again and was never really satisfied).... Through that whole experience God was not on a rational level, not on an intellectual level, but in my heart, sort of, opening my eyes to start to see Him and be aware of Him and His presence. On some occasions I had an awareness of love that seemed to go far beyond anything I had known or could imagine. I wasn't willing to admit this at the time, but in a very real sense, God was drawing me to Himself, and doing a work in my heart and in my mind, renewing my mind, breaking down defenses that I had. Gradually this process sort of accelerated, and came to a head. And I remember close to the end I was sort of wildly doing anything I could to fend off having to come to faith - because I was scared. I was impressed by your story, but I was also terrified by it. "If I give my life to Jesus, He's going to ruin it as I know it. He might give me a new life, but I'm kinda comfy with the life I have now, and I'm not sure how I feel about that being turned upside down." So I was afraid. I would read all the atheist magazines, and books, and the arguments I could find. But it was just getting more and more futile, because what I was sensing, what I was experiencing, transcended all of that, and just made it seem small and silly and irrelevant. It culminated when I spent some time with an atheist friend as a last attempt to sort of stave it all off. I was lamenting to him these fears I had, and the state I was in. I said, "I'm terrified I'm going to have to become a Christian and this is going to mess up my life in all these ways." And he said, "If I were you, why don't you just pick a different God?" And I blurted out, "I don't think I'm the one that's doing the picking!" And I just had this powerful sense that it was God drawing me to himself. It was God breaking down my defenses. It wasn't about me shopping around for worldviews or faith, but that God was active and trying to reach me, trying to touch my heart. Eventually I wasn't going to be able to escape anymore. There was going to have to be a surrender at some point. It culminated on the night of August 4th, 1998. I had just gotten back from spending time with this friend. I was completely overwhelmed and terrified. I didn't know what to do. I don't normally think in mystical terms, but if I'm going to be honest about what I experienced, then it felt like God showing me my life up to that point, almost as if it was a tapestry he was unfurling in front of me. There was a lot of ugliness in it. There was a lot of pain in it. But there was a sense of His design, His plan, what He was working on that made it beautiful. For me, being able to look at some of the stuff I've been through, and being able to see that as part of something beautiful. It was a very powerful thing to me. I didn't get an audible voice or anything, but I definitely had this sense of God saying, "If I have been able to work in your life like this, bring you this far, work these things out, with you fighting against me every step of the way, with you putting up your barriers, with you putting up your defenses, how much more can I ... Why are you afraid, why won't you trust me, how much more beautiful can this all be, if you'll just walk with me, give your life to me, love me, and just walk in my love?" For me that was a powerful experience, but there was still something that I couldn't let go of, that I wasn't ready to... For some reason I just felt paralyzed, like I couldn't do anything about it then. That was in the evening. I went to bed that night, and woke up the next morning, that was August the 5th, and for some reason, I didn't understand why at the time, I just felt this peace and this ability to just surrender my life to God, and to go forward with that. And so I knelt down and prayed something like the sinners prayer, and started walking with Jesus. Sonia: I remember it was maybe a couple of months before that day mentioned, you wrote to me and you described how you were walking somewhere, and just had an awareness, a sense, of love. It was so uncharacteristic about the things that you had described that I thought, "Could it be that God's really started to reveal Himself?" And I didn't respond very much outwardly at that time, but it really caused me to believe that He was doing something, that He was indeed drawing you. So we kept talking and praying. And then in August of 1998, I went to Germany. As I was falling asleep one night, I began to feel travail in my heart and I knew that it related to something that was on God's heart, and that it related to you. I didn't know what was happening because I was traveling and out of email contact. I knew what had gone on the month before, and there was this ongoing sense of prayer, but I didn't know what in particular was so heavy. But I prayed and wept. It went on, I don't know, maybe three hours or so. I prayed not with any elegant prayers, but just with my guts. I just knew that there was something that God was doing where you were concerned. At the end of that time, I felt at peace, and I went to sleep, still with no idea what had gone on. And then when I got home about a week later, I heard that that was the exact same day that you gave your heart to Jesus. It just filled me with such awe, and such joy, knowing that He could reveal himself, and reveal his love, and reach to you, and draw you close to Himself. It's one of the most wonderful things that has ever happened in my life. One of the things I've been most privileged to be part of and to see. I'm just so thankful for that. Johanna: I guess that brings us to the next phase of our friendship, which sort of transitions from you being a powerful witness in my life to be in more of a mentoring relationship. I had become a Christian, and I knew I was gay. Part of the sense that I had was that this Christianity thing was going to ruin my life. Before I had been a Christian, I had gone through a phase of doing a lot of arguing with Christians because I saw them as sort of the enemy, and standing in the way of acceptance and equality. As part of interacting with them, I was looking for arguments to engage them and to hopefully refute them with. So, already as a non-Christian, I had explored these questions of Christianity and homosexuality. I remember looking at the arguments, and reading theological perspectives from both sides, and acquainting myself with the scriptures on the subject. I remember, at the time, thinking, "I sure am glad I'm not a Christian because if I were, I think I would have to deny this part of myself." Not necessarily in the sense of having to deny having a certain sort of attractions, but in the sense of not being able to pursue them in a sexual relationship. My attitude was deeply grateful that that wasn't my problem. And then here I am, from all these months, and weeks of crazy experiences, I've given my life to Jesus, and all of a sudden it is my problem. Within a couple of weeks after starting my new life with Christ, it sort of came up, and it was like, "What have I done?" "How am I going to deal with this?" And our relationship shifted from me nagging you and challenging you about why you'd made the decisions you'd made, to suddenly finding myself in the same boat and feeling really overwhelmed, intimidated, and scared. I remember some online chatting, and calling you quite often and throwing that all out there at you. I imagine that must have been a little difficult given all you were going through yourself. Sonia: Well I was worried that I wouldn't be able to answer the questions that you were asking - questions that needed to be answered - questions of the heart. So I struggled mightily with that. Mostly I just prayed a lot and asked for God's comfort and strength to carry you through. I felt that questions related to homosexuality were only a small part of the picture of what you were facing. There were other things that had much more bearing on how you experienced being alone in the world, or connected with other people, or had the capacity to love and to be loved. And so I prayed about all of those things. I considered it a great privilege to be in your life, to walk with you during that time, and just to offer whatever I had. By that time, I was really beginning to come out on the other side of that very dark period. I was feeling much more resolved and at peace. But at the same time, I just had this sense of dread that you would have to experience something similar. I very much didn't want that. So I prayed, not that God would make it easy, but that it wouldn't be any more difficult than what it had to be. That He would just sustain you, fill in all the gaps, and that He would lead you into whatever He had for you. Johanna: I don't know whether or not it was harder than it had to be, but it was pretty hard for a long time. There was a lot of stuff to handle and deal with. I remember for a while I was mad at you. I mean, I loved you, but for a while it was like, "Why can't she be this or that?" "Why couldn't she have something more sunshiny to say?" In retrospect, I think God used it as a blessing, and at least forced me to look at different possibilities and ask the hard questions. Questions like, "Who is God?" "Is God still good if he doesn't take it away and make it easier?" My own journey got worse before it got better. I really struggled hard. And looking back, I'm not even sure I can always understand what it was all about. But I think in some ways, as those years went on, I was looking for support, I was looking for help. And sometimes the support, the help I found was probably more trouble than it was worth. I went through a phase where I was looking at your experience, and I felt, "This can't happen to me [celibacy]! How am I going to stop it from happening to me?" There were people out there with theories and ideas - this whole ex-gay subculture. And there's a lot of good stuff in there about devotion to God. But in some ways I think it led me on a path that wasn't very helpful for me - a path of obsessing about why I had these feelings - and a path obsessing about what happened to screw me up. I know some people find that liberating and helpful. But for me it seemed like a downward spiral, because nothing seemed to make a difference. I would be digging up stuff faster than I could process it, and it got really overwhelming. I sank into an awful season of depression and despair. The struggle and that despair went on for, I'd say, three years after I became a believer. At that point I entered a residential program. Which you, (Sonia) had mixed feelings about at the time. And it was certainly scary to leap into that situation. It was very difficult and very painful. But God used it. Coming out of the program hadn't changed my sexual attractions at all. But somehow in that time I found an increased level of strength and faith to just walk with God, and trust God and give up my desire to control the situation and to fix it. That was a huge blessing, in and of itself. It was becoming easier by having that added strength and that sort of acceptance. Which I think was also sort of working out in your (Sonia's) own life at a different level - but for both a sense of peace. It felt like, "This is hard. In some ways I'm giving up some things, I'm missing some things." But it wasn't the sort of intense, "How am I going to get by? How am I going to live with this sort of thing?" And that was freedom for me to come to that point. I'd say that phase in my life went on for two years. It was wonderful. God was doing things. He convicted me about being a "taker" from my community - encouraging me to serve and to love others rather than worrying about whether they would serve and love me the way I wanted to be. It got me more deeply involved in community. That helped me grow. And in all aspects, my knowledge of God deepened, my ability to follow Him, and my love for Him - all these things grew in that time. Four years ago I would have said I was content to walk in a single celibate life, serving him. I knew from your (Sonia's) own journey there would be ups and downs in that, and there was just something powerful about that experience. Of course something surprising happened to shake that all up. Here I was thinking, after four years of being like, "I can't possibly live with being celibate, with being single, with that daily self denial." After four years of saying, "I can't possibly do it" - then I finally get to the point after another two years, "Maybe I can do this with God's help. I've got friends, I've got community. With their help... this could work." Just when I'm getting comfy with that, God just sort of threw this huge surprise in my life. I randomly, out of the blue one day, just started having feelings for this guy. I had known him, but I hadn't known him well. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he had asked some friends about whether or not they thought there'd be any chance of us ever dating, or getting together. And his friends didn't know where I was at, so they were like, "If you ever want to date Johanna, you're going to have to wait a really, really long time." He didn't have a long time, so he got down on his knees and prayed, and said, "Lord, I don't understand this, but if it's not your will then obviously don't do it, but if it is your will, I'd really like to have Johanna in my life." Obviously from a scientific perspective I can't claim that there's any connection. But I will say that for the first time in my life I started noticing a guy, and having feelings for a guy, and we started dating. At first I was very anxious. But eventually I started to accept that maybe this was real. We got married two and a half years ago, and we've had a good happy marriage. We're expecting our first child pretty soon. That's been an awesome blessing and surprise that God just totally snuck up on me with. I don't see it as freedom, I don't see it as healing, I just see it at something that, for whatever reason I don't understand, he's brought into my life. And I just want to receive it gratefully, always remembering that he's leading other people on other paths. I don't want to be like, "This is what happens for everybody." Or, "This is what should happen for everybody." But I want to say, I'm just grateful for you (Sonia) teaching me so much about walking with God, and suffering with God. Even if I don't apply those same lessons I've learned from you in the way I once thought I would or in the way they've sort of manifested themselves in your own life. There are going to be other aspects of life where I'm going to have to ask those hard questions and wrestle with those hard issues of who God is, and what He wants from me. I'm just really grateful for you not only articulating, but also modeling with your own life, what it means to be a follower of Christ, and how to do it even when it defies our expectations, and our hopes, and our wishes, and the boxes we'd like to put God in. I thank Him for you quite often. |
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